r/OrthodoxChristianity Reddit yesterday

Protestant exploring Orthodoxy, family surprisingly open, seeking advice on first liturgy

I grew up Baptist, attended a Lutheran church and school through seventh grade, then spent years in nondenominational Bible churches. As I got older I lost interest in the church we were attending. It was exhausting to hear the same recycled contemporary music, to listen to someone beg for money for the first ten minutes of every service, and to have every sermon feel like it was lacking.

I married my wife, who did not grow up going to church, and after about eighteen months I took a "break" from church for six years. This was entirely on me; she wanted to go, but I was so fed up that I figured I would read the Bible at home or something.

Recently both of us started feeling a pull to get back into church in some capacity. We started taking our kids to a nondenominational church that my parents and grandparents attend.

Throughout my life, even as a teenager, I always struggled with the sermons. They constantly felt shallow, like something was missing or standing in the way of the truth. I have always believed in God, even in the years I was staying home on Sunday mornings. But I had a hard time taking any of the churches we went to seriously because I was always left with a lingering, "That was it?" feeling.

Now I'm thirty with multiple kids, and my wife (who didn't grow up religious) and I decided to start our family back in church. She was worried about where to even start learning the faith, and I told her it's okay to be intimidated, and that I would do all of the beginner Bible study with her.

It has been a long time since I was regularly reading the Bible, and I think I finally realized that just because I grew up passively going to church that did not make me the expert in Christianity that I pretended I was. I felt I needed to be absolutely sure that the foundation we build for our children is based on truth.

I started researching what was necessary for salvation just to help explain generic western Protestantism, but that led me to realize sola scriptura isn't a universally agreed upon idea. At first I was completely dismissive. I assumed it was just elitism or pagan-influenced "Catholic" baggage. But I stumbled onto Protestant versus Orthodox debates, expecting a logical Protestant PhD to effortlessly dismantle a "magic idol worshiping" opponent.

Instead, watching the Orthodox side pick apart Protestant assumptions completely blew my mind. It was a whole world I had been completely blind to.

Why did we have a different Bible? Which one is right? What is even in those extra books? What even is a Church Father? Is that like the first Pope? (Looking back at this note is funny.) How did 1,500 years of Christian history between Jesus and Martin Luther fail to ever be taught to me at any church or class?

Also why had I never even thought of it a single time? Why are we NOT doing the same thing as Christians in the year 100? They probably know more than we do, right?

I spent the next six months reading everything I could get my hands on. I kept it a secret because while I started to feel an undeniable pull towards Orthodoxy, my father and grandfather are very religious men who are both Protestant. Just the word Catholic makes them recoil in physical pain (my grandmother had some bad times in a Roman Catholic upbringing). They are both people I've always looked up to for guidance.

My grandfather was involved with Campus Crusade back in the day and knows retired pastors everywhere. My father was constantly, judgment-free, pestering me over those six years I was away from the church.

Carrying the weight of this, I finally decided to talk to my grandfather. I was fully expecting him to gently tell me I was insane and easily disprove everything I was looking into. In a way I was actually hoping for that, just to make the soul searching stop. Instead, he listened, humored me, and took my copy of Becoming Orthodox to read.

Main points

Struggled with shallow sermons and "That was it?" feeling across Protestant denominations
Research into salvation led to discovering Orthodoxy and 1,500 years of missing church history
Grandfather (83, Campus Crusade background) read Becoming Orthodox and said "we've essentially been lied to"
Father also acknowledged ignorance of Great Schism and bought books to learn more
Still wrestling with icon veneration, saint intercession, Marian theology, and anxiety about first liturgy with toddlers

25 opinions in the discussion 16 participants, 11 replies to each other The opinion with the most support Mental blocks are just mental blocks. It's great that you are aware you have them. It took my wife 10 years to kiss an icon. We are very different from Protestantism but, from what you wrote, you seem dissatisfied with what you had. Orthodoxy is becoming… Read the discussion

49 comments at the source Original on Reddit

Discussion · 25

Opinions are anonymous retellings of real comments from the original discussion. The same colour marks the same participant.

opinion#2212 14 likes at the source
Mental blocks are just mental blocks. It's great that you are aware you have them. It took my wife 10 years to kiss an icon. We are very different from Protestantism but, from what you wrote, you seem dissatisfied with what you had. Orthodoxy is becoming increasingly vilified in the United States as it gets a higher profile. That is just other groups trying to protect their business. Much of it is simply misunderstanding, misinformation or half truths. Some people close to you will never be convinced but this journey is about you, not them. I would encourage you to experience Orthodoxy as a worship community and not a set of doctrines. I see others have given similar advice. Talk to a priest. Visit a number of Orthodox Churches. Attend the liturgy. Attend vespers.
- opinion#2226 5 likes at the source
  Thanks for taking the time to reply, I think I just need to visit a few churches haha
  - opinion#2236 5 likes at the source
    
    Keep in mind that while all Eastern Orthodox are theologically the same and in communion with each other, they don't all run services the same way. The main 3 in the US are the Orthodox Church in America (out of the Russian Church), the Greek Archdiocese of America, and the Antiochian Orthodox. The Antiochians even have some "western rite" parishes where the service looks more like a Catholic one. There are cultural differences, and some parishes cater more to the immigrant communities they serve. The OCA is the one that tries hardest to appeal to Americans and positions itself as the American church. So if one style doesn't fit you, try a different kind, and don't assume that being uncomfortable in one means they're all like that. With your larger family also looking to convert, I'd hold regular dinners to hear everyone's take on things. Sometimes others notice what we don't and vice versa.
opinion#2213 12 likes at the source
Just go to church. Don't stress about the toddlers. The church is for them too. This is a spiritual journey, and a long one at that. It's not an intellectual exercise. Pray, go to church, fast, have faith. God bless you.
- opinion#2227 6 likes at the source
  
  Thanks for the reply, I guess it really is that simple to just show up. Not sure why I didn't think of it that way before. I appreciate it!
opinion#2214 11 likes at the source
I'd go to the Liturgy without the kids first so you can really take it all in and be present in worship. That said, kids are going to laugh, cry, crawl around the floor like little soldiers, reach up to other parishioners to be held or entertained (sometimes even the priest or deacon). Everyone expects this from children, and the Church is for the children. We call it "Holy noise" when they're loud. Believe me, nobody will judge you or be annoyed at your kids being kids. They belong in the Church, and it's better to have you all there than not there at all.
- opinion#2228 4 likes at the source
  
  That makes me feel a lot better haha, going without them first does make sense. Thanks for your comment!
opinion#2215 7 likes at the source

Others have given you great advice, I just wanted to speak to the Mary part, as someone who grew up hyper-reform PCUSA in a church whose anti-Catholic polemics were so bad that the church they attacked didn't even exist the way real Catholics would recognize it. I remember being scandalized by Silent Night because it mentioned her, and I was afraid we were worshiping her in that moment. I also carry a lot of maternal wounds from my earthly mother, and it took literal decades before I could call her Mom when asking for her intercessions, though I think she may have understood all along. Learning why the Church fought so hard for the word Theotokos, and how that says more about who Christ is than about elevating her to some worship Orthodoxy doesn't recognize, was one of the biggest things that helped with my mental blocks. And working on my mental health and trauma is what let me approach the Theotokos with anything other than dread and terror; I genuinely value my relationship with her now. Give yourself time. You have decades of doing and believing otherwise, and that doesn't vanish overnight, but you don't have to get there overnight either. If you're not there yet, you're not there yet. There's plenty else in the church to explore while that unfolds in its own time.
opinion#2216 7 likes at the source
First, nobody is going to force you to kiss anything or anyone or make you do anything you're not comfortable with. Why not stream a Divine Liturgy from a local Orthodox church you plan to visit at some point (follow along with a pdf of the Divine Liturgy of St John Chrysostom)? You'll see what happens. If you're streaming a Greek or Antiochian church, or any church that does Orthros first, the liturgy starts about an hour into the stream. You'll probably notice that nearly every line is a direct quote from the Bible, but the service follows an order, there's exactly one epistle and one gospel reading, and the homily (5-10 minutes) is based on one of those. If the church has a good microphone, it will probably pick up several kids being "disruptive." I'd suggest, though, that you AND your wife attend a couple of liturgies before bringing the kids, so you feel confident being there when you do bring them. Orthodox churches have inquirer classes for people exploring the faith; if you decide to join, you'll also need to go through a catechism of about a year that walks you through the church year. Hope that helps.
- opinion#2229 4 likes at the source
  
  The hold you down and kiss the icon part was a joke haha, I know how ridiculous it sounds lol. Attending the service without the kids first makes sense, I might try that. Thanks for the reply, I appreciate it!
opinion#2217 7 likes at the source
I didn't suddenly embrace everything when I first started attending Orthodox services. It's been nearly 30 years since I converted (from Protestantism), and it's been a process. The saints became truly real to me about 10 years ago. Mary even more recently than that. These days I feel like I'm just now starting to truly become an Orthodox Christian. "Further up and further in." God bless you. I'll be praying for you.
- opinion#2230 4 likes at the source
  
  I think part of my problem is that I've never converted to anything before, so I didn't realize I didn't have to immediately understand and embrace every part of it. It makes a lot more sense that I can kind of just work through it haha
opinion#2218 6 likes at the source
Hey, thanks for sharing your story. One thing I appreciate about Orthodoxy is that children are full members of the church, the same as their adult parents. That means they attend the same service, receive communion, everything. If you're bringing toddlers to a divine liturgy, bring a bag filled with crayons, pencils, coloring books, drawing pads, things like that. You'll find Orthodox people doing exactly the same with their kids. As for venerating icons, don't feel you have to until you're comfortable. Maybe light a candle instead. Just go with an open heart, and if you go to liturgy, be sure to stay for coffee hour afterwards.
- opinion#2231 3 likes at the source
  
  Thanks for the insight, I wasn't sure if kids could have (quiet) toys or anything, so it's a relief to know it's a bit less intense than I made it out to be in my head haha. Thanks for the words!
opinion#2219 6 likes at the source
Just go and see what it's about. I do recommend listening to some of the podcasts on Ancient Faith radio. The Whole Counsel of God is a great one, for anyone.
- opinion#2232 3 likes at the source
  
  I'll check them out, appreciate the recommendation!
opinion#2220 5 likes at the source

I'm also just looking into this, and my 4 and 2 year old have been warmly received at all 3 churches we've checked out so far. There were plenty of other young families there too!
opinion#2221 5 likes at the source
Just a reminder, the church IS the body of Christ, so you can't really "cheat" on your church. I was raised non denominational and my husband has been leading us toward Catholicism, though I keep feeling orthodox might be the right path. Problem is the nearest one is an hour from us. Anyway, definitely go try it. Anxiety isn't from the Lord, so I often see it as an attack keeping me from what God wants. I'll admit I still won't pray to saints, but that's not required. So take it at your own pace and learn what you can. Ask every question you have, and ask again if needed. Everyone I've met has been happy to share what they know. 🫶
- opinion#2233 4 likes at the source
  
  Thanks, it's true that the anxiety is basically handing me easy excuses to stay home. So it helps a lot seeing all these supportive replies with useful info
opinion#2222 4 likes at the source

"Instinctively feel way too close to idolatry" That instinct is mistaken. Learn more about what idolatry actually means. God bless your journey. May the Mother of God intercede for you and help you see the Truth of Christ more clearly.
opinion#2223 4 likes at the source
Some of it just takes time! Expect the toddlers to act like toddlers, don't be embarrassed or frustrated by it. Mostly they gradually learn to stay longer and longer. Take breaks, walk the halls, look at icons and candles, etc. Bring quiet stuff like books and mess free coloring, and make those things church-only so they stay novel. You don't have to do anything you don't understand or aren't comfortable with, that's what inquiring and catechism are for. Icons weren't a big issue for me. Read some hagiographies (I love the 101 and 102 Orthodox Saints books, good for all ages including adults), and once you learn everything they endured I think you can't help feeling respect for them and their faith. The kissing is honestly more of a cultural or germ thing imo. Mary will probably just take time and learning why the Orthodox believe what they do and why the prayers say what they say.
- opinion#2234 2 likes at the source
  
  Thanks for the reply. It really helps not having to stress so much about kids interrupting. I'm planning to visit an orthodox church this weekend or next. Is there anything specific I should watch out for? I know churches differ, but is there anything obvious I should avoid if I notice it?
opinion#2224 1 likes at the source

"I wish there was something I can read that answers my questions" There's a ton out there. The catch is none of it is short, sweet, or has the silver bullets Protestants tend to want. RE: Toddlers, one of the best things about the east is they don't shy away from kids or babies in the service. Babies even receive communion. That tells you something right there. Just go and step out if you need to. You'll probably see lots of kids coloring on the floor and babies being babies. RE: Icons, you keep a picture of your grandmother in your wallet. You pull it out and say "I wish you were here, I miss you" and kiss it. Did you just worship her? There's more nuance, but that's how I got past it. RE: Mary, the questioning about Mary usually comes down to what happens after we die. The answer is in what Jesus said: He is God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob. He is not god of the dead but of the living. Being Catholic myself, I can give more specific answers about Mary, but for you the gist is she is the mother of God and queen of heaven and deserves our utmost veneration. Let me know if you want specifics, I've actually spent a fair amount of time studying Mariology.
opinion#2225 1 likes at the source
I'm a catechumen in the Orthodox church with a similar Protestant (Presbyterian in my case) background. To your closing questions: advice for a Protestant walking into an Orthodox liturgy for the first time with toddlers? Just go to church man. That's the whole point. Come and see. Open your heart and let the Holy Spirit work on you and your family. I researched Orthodoxy a lot before my first Divine Liturgy, and no amount of research fully prepares you. Even people attending for decades still learn something new. Try talking to the priest or deacon afterward. I promise they don't bite, and they'll likely have some edifying answers to your questions. How did I get past the mental blocks on icons and Mary? Someone may want to argue about how literally I put this, but here it is. The Theotokos (God bearer, Mary) is the role model all Christians should aspire toward. We follow Christ Himself, but He was God and we are not. Mary, like us, was not God, yet she was the human God judged pure, spotless, and obedient enough to bear the Son. As she said, behold the handmaiden of the Lord. She is the Queen of Heaven, the mother who bore Christ, nursed Him, raised Him. Is there any higher honor on earth than that? So her story is deeply woven into each of ours as we all strive to be humble servants of the Lord. Icons will start making more sense as you grow. We hold that the Kingdom of…
- opinion#2235 1 likes at the source
  
  Thanks for your reply, how many churches did you visit before you found your "home" church? And how long was it between inquiring and starting the catechumen process?