Unwelcome at a ROCOR parish, questioning ethnic focus

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• − opinion#1990 1 likes at the source

  Just last week a priest gave a very brief sermon in our monastery: a woman with two children came into the church wearing pants with her hair uncovered, and one of the older women criticized her for it. The woman left with her kids. The priest said he didn't know who did it, but the person who did knows, and he gave that person a penance: pray for the salvation of those three souls for the rest of their life, because they may have turned them away from the Church and God, and that responsibility is on them. That was the whole sermon. I've never been to a ROCOR parish, but this problem of judging people and driving them away definitely isn't limited to them. P.S. As a culturally Russian person I sometimes hear from foreigners that we seem unfriendly because smiling at strangers isn't part of our etiquette. Smiling is for genuine happiness or fun, not a social routine. Though it would be odd to keep acting that way while living in a different culture.

  • − opinion#2002 1 likes at the source

    Yeah, I've heard similar homilies too, and we've all heard "do unto others," which we and most Christians we know try to actually live by. That's why it baffles me that some Christians would behave like that.

    • − opinion#2007 1 likes at the source

      As my priest told me, you can be both: happy to have joined the fullness of the church, while also knowing that people inside the faith are flawed and imperfect too. God bless you, and may this not shake you.
  • − opinion#2003 1 likes at the source

    That original sermon was actually given by a fairly well-known reposed Metropolitan in the UK.
  • − opinion#2004 1 likes at the source

    Going from a very convert-heavy Antiochian parish to a very ethnic Russian church was a huge cultural shift for us. Everyone there is actually very kind and loving, but at first it absolutely comes across as rude, mean, and judgmental, because Russian culture is so different from modern American culture, where we're generally way over friendly with everybody.
  • − opinion#2005 1 likes at the source

    I'm a bit ashamed this happened to me. It was after services, maybe one other person there, and my 3 year old was looking at the murals of the saints going 'wow!' A woman came up to me and told me to take my kid out of the parish. It just took all the fight out of me. I haven't been back to church since and it makes me so sad.

    • − opinion#2008 1 likes at the source

      I'm so sorry that happened to you. That person was wrong. My 2.5 year old asks to be carried around our sanctuary to kiss the icons. She can point out Jesus and His mommy. Icons and religious art are a powerful way to reach the littlest souls, they really do seem to grasp iconodoulia intuitively.
• − opinion#1991 1 likes at the source

  Russians generally won't come up and bombard you when you visit somewhere new. Small talk with strangers just isn't part of their culture, and honestly they tend to find it fake and weird. Think of it this way: Americans ask "how are you?" all the time. If you were having a bad day, would you actually explain that to a stranger, or just say "fine"? When a Russian asks how you're doing, they genuinely want to know, and it's normal for you to unload about your bad day. It took me a while to get used to that. The upside is that in general I've found them (and Slavs overall) to be some of the kindest, most genuine people I've ever met. You just have to break the ice first.
• − opinion#1992 1 likes at the source

  A few things. My family and I have attended a ROCOR parish for a long time and it's lovely, wouldn't change a thing. What I've learned is that the Slavic half of the congregation generally takes longer to warm up to new people. For some it's a language barrier, but I also think our American "oh hi, welcome, is this your family, so glad you're here" routine strikes them as strange. Many of them, especially the older ones, just don't smile unless there's actually something to smile about. Don't let that catch you off guard. The babushkas can be the sweetest people you'll ever meet, especially when someone brings a new baby around! It just takes time. If there are Americans in the congregation, they'll probably be the first ones you get to know. Also, when you're new and everyone's lighting candles, kissing icons and bowing, you're going to feel out of place. It took me about six months to feel genuinely comfortable with the whole flow of things. Keep going, don't let the Russian stare scare you off, be willing to feel awkward for a while, try Vespers too (smaller crowd), and enjoy the sheer majesty of Russian Orthodox liturgical music. It's worth it!
• − opinion#1993 1 likes at the source

  In my experience Russian/ROCOR is the most strict, intense and serious arm of Orthodoxy, so it isn't welcoming in the American sense for most people. GOA/Greek is the most relaxed, laid back and forgiving, almost too warmly welcoming. If you want people who won't judge your wife for not wearing a head covering, go Greek; if you want to be pushed toward piety and strictness, go Russian 😅 There are other cultures/jurisdictions, but on a spectrum Greek and Russian are usually the two ends of every comparison. Orthodoxy isn't like Catholicism or Protestantism where everyone wants to be your friend. I've gone to one Orthodox church for almost 5 years and know maybe 10 people there; at another I know everyone. Like anywhere else, it depends on the community, so don't let your ROCOR experience push you away. If anything, revisit it later when you're more experienced and want to be stricter on your own path. Hope this helps!
• − opinion#1994 1 likes at the source

  In my experience Orthodox Christians live outside modern social norms. Don't expect the love-bombing fake social gestures. But at the same time, once you actually get to know people and talk with them, they're often the most genuine, caring people you'll meet.
• − opinion#1995 1 likes at the source

  Yeah, some ROCOR parishes feel like that, especially for American converts. Not all, but some. The ones I've been to where I didn't feel it were usually convert-heavy or had a convert priest. Some of it is cultural, like others said, Russians come across as very introverted. But I get it. Still, don't let this one experience stop you from visiting other parishes or jurisdictions. A few ways I vet places: in some churches hair covering feels almost mandatory, so a woman with uncovered hair might stand out or get stares. Covering is a personal choice, but I follow the crowd on it; I check the parish website or social media for photos of the congregation and go with that. Greek churches have almost always been very welcoming to me despite some ethnicentrism, Antiochian often are too, and I've been to welcoming ROCOR parishes. A good sign for converts is a website that says "welcoming to visitors," "any heritage," or explains how much of the service is in English. One more thing: I hope the comment about your kids was a one-off! Even well-behaved children make noise during Liturgy, and most churches are understanding, even glad about it. Growing up, the old babushkas were the most protective of kids being there lol. Once my mom turned to take my crying baby sister out of the sanctuary, and a babushka grabbed her shirt, scolded her, took the screaming baby and calmed her down,…
• − opinion#1996 1 likes at the source

  As someone who has been one of those people a few times in my life: forgive us. Please try again. I know we didn't make it easy or welcoming. It wasn't our intent, but it was our failure.
• − opinion#1997 1 likes at the source

  Definitely not all ROCOR parishes are like that. The one I used to attend was very convert-heavy and friendly, and the priest himself, now a bishop, was a convert from Catholicism. Don't let this discourage you; I've been to many Orthodox churches across different jurisdictions with good experiences. I've settled at a Ukrainian church under Patriarch Bartholomew. People are friendly enough but definitely won't come introduce themselves unprompted on your first visit. I've been going a little over a month and only just started getting good mornings from almost everyone last Sunday lol, though I also have a toddler, don't hang around after church, and aren't super extroverted myself. Maybe if you attend more often people would open up, maybe they don't get many newcomers and aren't used to it, maybe everyone was having a bad day, who knows. Pray for them and don't let it bother you too much.
• − opinion#1998 1 likes at the source

  Did anyone actually say something rude to you, or is it just that you didn't want people looking at you?

  • − opinion#2006 1 likes at the source

    Nobody said a word to us, but I'm sure you know the experience of people constantly staring at you and the sense that they don't want you around. You don't have to argue that away. My main church is genuinely welcoming, you can just feel it when you're there.
• − opinion#1999 1 likes at the source

  I've been Orthodox for close to 8 years and had the very same thing happen at the local ROCOR cathedral, and I actually speak Russian fluently. I've gotten similar treatment from Russian neighbors in our apartment building too. There are cultural reasons Russians can come across as cold toward strangers, but that doesn't make it less unpleasant when it's happening to you. Try not to take it personally (easier said than done) and don't feel obligated to go back to that parish.
• − opinion#2000 1 likes at the source

  I'm so sorry that happened to you. When I first started attending, someone criticized me from behind for doing something wrong as a newcomer, and I felt so awful I skipped church for two weeks. :( I prayed about it and had this flash of insight that the church belongs to everyone, not just a chosen few. So I went back with confidence, claimed my spot, and stopped caring what anyone there thought of me, since my relationship was between the priest and God. I keep my attention on the words, the meaning, the homilies. I think that's the right mindset, God knows your intentions and that you're really trying! 🩷
• − opinion#2001 1 likes at the source

  I don't really get what this post is for. It's a church you visited once, and you already have a home parish you like. This doesn't sound terrible, it just sounds like you went somewhere new, nobody talked to you, and people noticed you weren't a regular. Sure, it could be a cold parish, but it could also just be you feeling very self conscious in unfamiliar surroundings.