Torn between Catholicism and Orthodoxy: how did you finally decide?

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• − opinion#986 22 likes at the source

  I genuinely love the Mass, the Rosary, and Gregorian chant. If I went purely by what I personally prefer, I'd pick Roman Catholicism every single time without hesitation. But the truth is only one of these two churches can be right about the distinct claims they each make, and what I keep finding is that history shows again and again that the Pope's current role is a later development with no basis in the early church.

  • − opinion#1001 9 likes at the source

    Thank you! That's pretty much where I stand too. I'm not hunting for a church where I personally feel most at ease, one that matches my values, or one I simply like more. If that were the goal, I'd have stopped at the first protestant church I walked into. I want the truth no matter how uncomfortable it turns out to be. I feel like I'm really close, but the further I dig, the more torn I get between these two.
  • − opinion#1002 6 likes at the source

    Good for you brother! I've talked with plenty of people who won't even look at Orthodoxy fairly, because they're too attached to their western culture and background.
  • − opinion#1003 4 likes at the source

    Huh, I'm the exact opposite, I love Russian liturgical aesthetics and the Orthodox approach to prayer. I do agree with you that the current form of the Roman papacy is an innovation and that history favors Orthodoxy over RC.
• − opinion#987 8 likes at the source

  Once you leave Catholicism and become orthodox it's like stumbling onto buried treasure. There's no way to even put it into words.
• − opinion#988 7 likes at the source

  The Orthodox fed me (sarcasm). I originally started attending a Catholic church at Christmas. Then Sunday Masses, sometimes midweek ones too. At first it felt right, but then something seemed off and I started looking into Eastern Orthodoxy. Eventually I quit going to the Catholic church because something felt really wrong. At my last mass it was like a voice screaming "look into Orthodoxy". Then I went to an Agape Vespers and was sold. A lot of things that make no sense the way Catholics explain them (the Filioque, for instance. It wrecks the Trinity) make sense in Orthodoxy. After going every weekend for a few weeks, I decided it was correct. Now, even if you could 100% prove to me the Catholic Church is the true church, I'd still stay Orthodox. I almost converted to Catholicism because I figured I was too dumb to interpret the Bible myself. I chose Orthodoxy because the Orthodox are right.
• − opinion#989 7 likes at the source

  I grew up Protestant, became Roman Catholic at 20, and Orthodox at 32, which was this past Pascha. For me, RC never felt real the way Orthodoxy does. I reasoned my way into RC. I read the Church Fathers and then saw what they described through a Roman Catholic lens, hierarchy, liturgy, and so on. It was a matter of logic, not really intuition or perception. To be fair, there were things about RC that brought me happiness or peace, and I'm not convinced I didn't receive God's grace. But my faith was far too legalistic and rationalistic, and I brushed past too many things I didn't understand or that bothered me, all in the name of holding to the apostolic faith. I'd strongly urge you to spend time at Orthodox services and around Orthodox people. I suspect you'll see and feel, with your deepest self, what's different here. Either way, God guide your journey!

  • − opinion#1004 6 likes at the source

    I should add that I think the historical record leans toward Orthodoxy over Roman Catholicism; sure, both sides can point to things that seem to back their own teachings, but in my view we come out just slightly ahead. Happy to go into more detail if you want, just say the word.

    • − opinion#1009 2 likes at the source

      If you don't mind, I'd really love to hear more about your experience, I find it fascinating! You were Catholic for 12 years, what pushed you to look further? What was it at the Orthodox church that made you feel like "I found it, this is it"?

      • − opinion#1014 2 likes at the source

        I got to know RC in depth around 17-18 while reading the Church Fathers. I quickly saw how "substantial" RC is compared to Protestantism. Not long after, I learned about Orthodoxy, but by then I'd already accepted RC teaching. I couldn't work out which communion was the one true Church, and since I was unbaptized and felt some urgency, I made the probably-hasty call to split the difference and become Byzantine Catholic. So I was baptized at 20 in the Ukrainian Catholic Church, a baptism not done according to Eastern tradition and therefore not accepted when I came into Orthodoxy. For most of my RC years I practiced the Roman rite for various reasons. The Byzantine identity never stuck beyond my first few weeks. Then, during a rough patch about 4 and a half years ago, I decided I needed a parish community to truly belong to. I tried a Byzantine Catholic parish. I ended up attending there exclusively for 3 years. There I was formed in Orthodox forms of worship and some Orthodox teachings, and gradually let go of my affiliation with and attachment to RC. Early last year I hit another very hard stretch, a serious depression, and once I felt more like myself in the spring, this longing I'd had for communion with those who worshiped and believed like me (the Orthodox) came to a head, and I decided I had to finally get to the bottom of Orthodoxy after years of knowing about it but…

        • − opinion#1017 1 likes at the source

          > So I was baptized at 20 in the Ukrainian Catholic Church, a baptism not done according to Eastern tradition and therefore not accepted when I came into Orthodoxy. Just curious, did something happen at your baptism that made them reject it? The few ECs I've personally seen received into Orthodoxy were only chrismated. > The Orthodox people also won me over. In RC, while I met good and maybe even holy people, generally I often felt like most of my fellow parishioners and I came to the same building but left as individuals, not as a family. I relate to that. The RCC feels like a Starbucks, one on every corner and you get the identical thing at each, so to some degree they're interchangeable. Orthodoxy is more like a local coffee shop/diner/bar/whatever, where everyone knows your name for better or for worse.

          • − opinion#1020 1 likes at the source

            It was odd. The baptism was done by pouring water once, after the formula had been said, not three times during the formula as is standard in RC, and not by triple immersion as the Byzantines do it. The archbishop considered that deficient enough to require baptism.
• − opinion#990 6 likes at the source

  I think you should take this question to God, my friend. Maybe think of the saints you love most and feel closest to, read their akathists, ask them in your heart where the truth is, or read the canon to the Lord Jesus Christ every night and meditate on it. You can hold a kind of pseudo vigil at home when you're facing a really important decision. We read akathists, prayers from the prayer books, passages from the gospels, and we fast until our hearts feel settled and God has stepped into our hearts. You don't have to do any of this, but it's what helps me and my family. I hope you find the answer you need and I pray God leads you to the truth. By the way, in my view it's pretty clear historically that Orthodoxy is the oldest faith, especially when you look at the timeline of the catholic church and how they drifted away from orthodoxy piece by piece. But there's plenty of literature out there that explains that far better than I can, and I'm no historian. So my best advice is to pray and pray and ask God to show you where His church is and where you belong. He answers all our prayers if we pray them with fervent faith!!!
• − opinion#991 6 likes at the source

  First of all, congratulations and blessings to you for recognizing how empty being an atheist is. I was an atheist for years and it's honestly not a happy or fulfilling way to live. My simple advice is to go where you feel most spiritually fed. I'm a practicing Roman Catholic myself, but I once had a neighbor who was an Antiochian Orthodox priest and we got to know each other pretty well. I attended the Liturgies and Vespers at his church for nearly a year. There's no denying the beauty of certain Orthodox Liturgies. I even sat in on a few Catechumen classes before my wife and I decided to go back to Mass. One thing I really struggled with was their insistence on re-baptizing us, even though we'd already been baptized. I kept coming back to the Creed, where we "confess ONE baptism for the forgiveness of sins". Anyway, side track…. The other thing that seemed a bit off was that pretty much the entire congregation were Protestant converts (lots of Evangelicals included). It just had a feel like the Protestantism we grew up with in the Midwest, where everyone was in your business (i.e. why weren't you at church on such and such day)? By contrast, nobody at the RC Church would ever ask why you missed Mass lol. Of course, some of the terms in Orthodoxy also feel a little foreign to Westerners (understandably). In the end it comes down to personal preference, and what matters is…
• − opinion#992 4 likes at the source

  Pick one and stay with it for a while. Once it's familiar and you've settled into the rhythm of the Church, decide whether to keep going or try the other one for a while and reassess. I'd also suggest volunteering in some way. It'll help you get to know the people in your Church while you serve others for God.
• − opinion#993 4 likes at the source

  I'm in a similar spot, but I was raised Catholic and I'm still figuring things out. Maybe too early to say, but I think Orthodox theology is closer to the truth than Catholic, yet Orthodoxy isn't set up to flourish in the 21st century the way Catholicism is. Catholics are very organized and Pope Leo is popular. I've seen firsthand the pull that church has on agnostics and lukewarm Christians. Catholics aren't always right, but it's easy to find where they stand on most things, and in the developed world there's always a Catholic church within driving distance. Orthodoxy by comparison is more fragmented, more ethnic, more esoteric. Not saying that to push you away from it, I might still convert myself, but I think the future belongs more to Catholicism than Orthodoxy.
• − opinion#994 3 likes at the source

  Yes, I've been down a similar road. For me it was the papal claims versus how the Church actually lived in the first millennium, the legalistic courtroom character of Catholic sacramental life, and the final straw was reading *Two Paths* by Michael Whelton. I love a lot about Western Christianity, mostly the aesthetics. But the root of the faith mattered more to me.

  • − opinion#1005 2 likes at the source

    Good point about the courtroom thing. I'm definitely seeing that difference. The Catholic approach seems focused on punishment, or balancing out the sin based on how bad it was, while the Orthodox one aims at healing the soul. Since I'm not a member of either church I haven't experienced either firsthand, I've only read about them. The Orthodox take on original sin also makes much more sense to me.

    • − opinion#1010 2 likes at the source

      Even though I'm fond of Catholics, your observations are right on. I looked into Catholicism once, but the courtroom framework, grading the sin, assigning the penance... I don't see that as coming from God, I see it as coming from men. Orthodoxy really is about healing. That made way more sense to me.
• − opinion#995 3 likes at the source

  I came from a similar place, atheist my whole life. Choosing a church was pretty simple for me: first I only wanted one that truly had the Eucharist, so like you it was Catholicism or Orthodoxy. In the end I didn't want to be Catholic mainly because of the Church's long history of abuses, and I thought the Orthodox had a strong case on the Filioque. Bottom line, I'd say what matters most is what your local church community is like, so go and see if you connect with people there.
• − opinion#996 3 likes at the source

  Mind if I ask what made you suddenly believe in God? God bless.

  • − opinion#1006 3 likes at the source

    It was actually a challenge I saw online. I never felt drawn to religion. It was called Faithless Christianity, aimed specifically at atheists, basically pushing practice before faith. It told atheists to act as if they believed and watch what happens. I like a good challenge so I went for it. It meant reading and seriously studying the Bible daily, praying daily, journaling and gratitude every day, listening to sermons, living by scripture, one good deed a day. I can't say exactly when or how, but the faith just came along somewhere in the process.

    • − opinion#1011 1 likes at the source

      Thank God you landed in Orthodoxy, it can be tough for new believers. I feel like there's almost an intellectual wall where people know God is real but don't know the next step, and they get stuck in Protestantism facing a million competing and contradictory ideas. That's what happened to me. All the best going forward.

      • − opinion#1015 2 likes at the source

        Honestly, doing it the way I did, it's nearly impossible to end up anywhere but one of the original churches. I only encountered the Bible from my living room, studying it thoroughly page by page, and by the end it felt like I was holding something serious and holy. So imagine my surprise when I finally visited a church and it felt like a fun team building event lol. I could drop my baby at the nursery, drink my coffee warm, and enjoy good music and a relatable sermon. Don't get me wrong, it was GREAT, but it matched nothing of what I'd spent months studying. In the end it just didn't feel real.
• − opinion#997 2 likes at the source

  Do you accept Vatican I?

  • − opinion#1007 2 likes at the source

    Good question. I honestly don't know. I love the idea of global unity, but the idea that one person holds the final say and ultimate authority is kind of terrifying. I know the verse Catholics use to justify the Pope, but building an entire system on it seems like a stretch. Clearly I'm confused lol.

    • − opinion#1012 6 likes at the source

      In my view, this is the only question that matters in the post-Vatican II era. Either the pope is infallible, in which case the Roman Catholic Church is right about everything and any reservations you have are your own problem, or he isn't, and the whole thing is built on sand.

      • − opinion#1016 2 likes at the source

        In your opinion, does scripture give Catholics enough evidence to justify the Pope/Vatican? This is what I'm wrestling with. I love the idea of global unity and find it very appealing, but I'm not 100% sure it's actually justified and backed by scripture.

        • − opinion#1018 5 likes at the source

          We have global unity too! For example, my wife and I are from rural Pennsylvania, hillbillies basically lol. This spring we went to Greece for a pilgrimage/honeymoon. At times Greece felt more like home than home did. We walked into every church knowing exactly what to do and where we were in the service despite barely knowing Greek. We talked with people about Orthodoxy in broken English and Greek and had beautiful conversations. We visited Saint Paisios' grave and venerated him and Saint Arsenios, and if people hadn't heard us speak we'd have blended right in. My 14 month old son received communion from the successor to the Apostle Titus at the cathedral in Heraklion, Crete, where Saint Titus' skull is, and the bishop said to him Ah bravo Gavreel, bravo! as he gave him communion. Never let anyone tell you the Pope is needed for unity. We could have done this in Russia, Georgia, Serbia, Jerusalem, Damascus, anywhere the Church exists.
        • − opinion#1019 3 likes at the source

          I'm Eastern Orthodox. Of course I don't. You don't need an autocrat for unity.
• − opinion#998 1 likes at the source

  I was in the same spot about 5 months ago, coming out of Atheism. I still run into quotes that sound too Roman Catholic and have to dig into them. The truth is the Roman see did play a real appellate role in the first 1000 years and was highly honored, but it was honored because it was *Orthodox*. Some people argue for a minimalist Vatican 1 papacy, but V1 is not minimal at all and it's not how the Church actually worked. I've been chewing on this lately and I'm surely not the first to notice. Roman Catholicism feels like a rulebook you follow just to avoid sin. Marriage annulments show this for me. Divorce is a sin. The annulment system ignores the real wound divorce causes by painting over it: "you were never actually married, so there was no divorce." If a marriage can be annulled, how would you or your priest know a real marriage happened during the sacrament? You can't know. The only confirmation is whether it lasts. So people can keep marrying until they find their "actual" marriage, even with kids involved. Catholics seemingly gave up the ability to truly marry just to avoid the sin of divorce. It also allows years of fornication if an annulment comes through. In Orthodoxy we treat marriage, human sinfulness, and healing as all real. You truly married, but fallen human nature means people can betray that vow and divorce. We don't gloss over it; we say it *is* a sin…
• − opinion#999 1 likes at the source

  Why not keep attending both, if your relationship with God is growing at both? It's a worldly "choice," but converts and cradles who come back to the church still take many years to work out their identity in either the Catholic or Orthodox Church. My point is, there's no rush. You're brand new to Christ in your relationship with Him anyway. If you're committing your faith to Christ and following Him, it may take a while before your answer is revealed.

  • − opinion#1008 1 likes at the source

    Mostly because properly exploring both takes a lot of time. I work full time and have 2 kids, including a permanently angry infant who only wants his mama (aka me 😁). Right now I'm doing OCIA class on Thursday, Orthodox inquirer's class Saturday morning, sometimes Vespers in the evening, then Catholic Mass Sunday morning. Missing a class means missing important info and I feel lost the next week. I'm also studying in my free time. It's not sustainable long term since I have to drag the angry baby everywhere with me. This has become a big 'project' and search for truth for me, but Orthodoxy vs Catholicism is where I hit the wall. I might drop the actual classes and just stick to Mass and Liturgy to keep exploring.

    • − opinion#1013 1 likes at the source

      Ah yeah, that makes sense. Your life has big time constraints, so it would be more fruitful to "commit" to one or the other. I'll echo the others here since I'm already biased toward Orthodoxy. But at the end of the day, the decision/commitment wouldn't be authentic if you didn't make it yourself. If you get what I mean. If you're leaning Orthodoxy, I'd say check out the subreddit FAQ and search for posts like yours. Best further advice I can give.
• − opinion#1000 1 likes at the source

  I never faced this dilemma, but two things. First, I know people who spent years in "analysis paralysis." Unpopular maybe, but you're probably better off spiritually at the "wrong" church than at neither. Second, there's a lot to say about Orthodoxy vs Catholicism, but one easy to digest issue is the papal claims of Vatican I: the pope's authority is 1) supreme 2) universal 3) immediate, and 4) ordinary. People focus on the first (maybe because it feeds fears about power abuse), but to me the others are the bigger problems. History seems very clear these are innovations. From a forthcoming book: because the battle lines are drawn as infallibility or bust, people are surprised that Orthodox, while rejecting papal *supremacy* and certainly *infallibility*, don't object to papal *primacy*, including certain unique privileges for the pope among his brother bishops. So biblical and patristic support for primacy alone isn't relevant to the debate. Popular arguments conflate primacy with supremacy (sometimes even infallibility). Once distinguished, evidence for primacy is strong, for supremacy far weaker and mixed with counter-evidence, and for infallibility weaker still. The mere existence of the Assyrian, Miaphysite, and Eastern Orthodox churches would be nearly inexplicable if supremacy or infallibility were part of "the faith once delivered." As an example of primacy without…