Greek vs Russian Orthodox Traditions

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• − opinion#1171 52 likes at the source

  Russian Orthodox here. When my husband and I got married, our priest specifically pointed out that it's becoming a common misconception that women should submit. He said it's a wrong translation from Greek, that the best word would be "respect", and then added "I hope I don't need to clarify that it goes both ways". My children's godfather is Greek, so I asked him as well, and he insisted "respect" was the better translation.

  • − opinion#1185 19 likes at the source

    I wrote this as a reply to someone about a week ago; hope it helps; it relates to Ephesians 5 >Remember that what you are reading is a translation. When the translation says Paul tells a wife to obey, Paul used the greek word hupotasso (hupo - under tasso - rank), and while in a military context it means submission / subordinate and defines a hierarchy, in a non-military or societal group it implies a voluntary attitude of cooperation, being supportive and maybe yielding one's will to another. But a little further down in Ephesians when Paul talks about children and slaves he uses the stronger word "hupakouo" which **really** means obey; note he doesn't use that word for wives. >Paul ends or summarizes the passage "However, let each one of you love his wife as himself, and let the wife see that she **respects** her husband." He uses the word ***phobeomai***, which literally means "to fear", but you have to look at context and semantics; this was written in the 1st century, and to fear carried a meaning of reverence, honor, and respect, like when we say "with the fear of God" >I hope that helps.

    • − opinion#1195 10 likes at the source

      I don't know how I missed this, but this one verse says it all "Be subject to one another out of reverence for Christ" (Ephesians 5:21 RSV)

      • − opinion#1208 11 likes at the source

        Key wording: "to one ANOTHER", meaning it's not one-sided, but goes both ways in a cooperative relationship
  • − opinion#1186 5 likes at the source

    The word translated as "submit" in basically every English translation I can see at a glance doesn't have a sense in which it can be read as "respect". It's the same word used in 1 Corinthians 15:28, when Paul writes about how all things will be subject to Christ who is subject to His Father. Even borrowed into modern Greek, there's no sense in which it means "respect". I don't know what "submit" is supposed to mean apart from what Paul describes. When Paul talks about submission, he talks about *both parties* "submitting" *to each other.* He then describes how the husband submits to the wife and vice versa, likening the husband to the Christ who suffered for His Church and telling him to likewise love his wife. I'm not sure what the practical ideal would be (I, an unmarried man, am inclined to ideally view marriage as two people contributing the best of themselves to face life's hardships together) but when you have language-related factoids like these, it's hard to trust any proposed interpretation. And personally, I struggle to understand what women generally want from a man they'd join themselves to, so stuff like this doesn't help me.

    • − opinion#1196 7 likes at the source

      Absolutely a partnership. I think the arguments about this word or that word or it means this now but when Paul wrote it it meant... whatever, aren't very helpful. Marriage should make both people better. Sometimes it's in an iron sharpens iron sort of way, sometimes in a scaffolding sort of way, sometimes it's a hot mess. But the other person's best interest is what you should have in mind.
  • − opinion#1187 1 likes at the source

    But some verses say to obey your husband in everything, so what would that mean instead if it only means respect?

    • − opinion#1197 14 likes at the source

      I think this gets at the Orthodox church's "pastoral" approach to these issues. There are general rules people should follow, and then there's the specific way those rules get implemented in individual lives. What looks like obedience for one couple may cause unnecessary division in another. The goal of Orthodox Christianity is salvation of the human soul, which isn't exactly a "one size fits all" process. All that to say, the correct Orthodox approach would be to listen to real life advice from a priest you've met in the physical world over anything online.
    • − opinion#1198 4 likes at the source

      If it helps, there's something worth noticing even in the history of the word *obey*: it comes ultimately from Latin *ob + audire*, carrying the sense of listening or attending to. Christian obedience is not supposed to mean checking your conscience at the door and letting another human being become God for you. And the New Testament's teaching on marriage is bigger than "wife obey husband." Ephesians places marriage inside the mystery of Christ and the Church, with the husband commanded to love his wife as Christ loved the Church and gave Himself up for her. That is an extraordinarily demanding model of authority: self-gift, not domination. The norm in Orthodoxy is absolutely that marriage is for life, and divorce is tragic rather than casual. But the Church also recognizes human sin and weakness and doesn't pretend every marriage continues to embody communion just because two people remain legally married. Separation and, in grave circumstances, divorce and eventual remarriage can be permitted, including situations involving serious physical or spiritual danger. So if a husband is not pointing toward Christ, but is instead using "obedience" to demand his wife violate conscience, accept abuse, tolerate serious harm, or surrender the personhood God gave her, I think that is precisely something she, and her priest and other trustworthy people helping her, should pay very close…
    • − opinion#1199 4 likes at the source

      Which verses say obey your husband in everything? The patriarchs probably should have listened to their wives more than they did.
    • − opinion#1200 1 likes at the source

      "But some verses say to obey your husband in everything so what would that mean instead then if it only means respect?" only respect? Hmmm. Please see my above comment. The word "obey" as understood today is not a good translation
  • − opinion#1188 1 likes at the source

    "voluntary submission" would be the more accurate translation.
• − opinion#1172 25 likes at the source

  There are many non-dogmatic areas where the Church allows slight variations in small t-traditions. For example, there are different fasting guidelines among the Greek and Russian Churches. The decision to wear a head covering is not a dogma. It's possible the priest was also responding to one specific culturally ingrained Evangelical Protestant viewpoint of "submission in marriage" called "complementarianism", which tends to unhealthily treat the husband as a sovereign unto himself and heavily focus on what wives ought to do rather than what St. Paul actually writes (where both parties need to act in self-sacrificial love towards each other). Even if the language is at least somewhat rooted in (English translations of) Scripture, the American Evangelical cultural context of interpreting them as binding rather than pastoral, and the fact that many inquirers and converts come from Evangelical Protestant backgrounds, means those ideas are still at least influential in how people discuss them.

  • − opinion#1189

    I'd disagree here, at least in my area. Protestants heavily emphasize "servant leadership" where it essentially boils down to "if you're not listening to your wife you're not a leader"

    • − opinion#1201 8 likes at the source

      You're right in the sense that American Protestantism is so big it can't really be boiled down into one stance. The viewpoint I described is the "complementarian" view that tends to be popular among Southern Baptists, certain Reformed churches (including conservative Presbyterians and Reformed Baptists), and Independent Baptists. From what I understand denominations like Pentecostalism would be more comfortable with the servant leadership model. There's no definitive Orthodox stance on either, but I've met Bishop John Abdallah of the Antiochian Archdiocese (himself a widowed priest before becoming a bishop) who used a metaphor that although a husband is the head (per Ephesians), the wife is the neck (and the head cannot move independently of the neck). In conclusion, he said, "listen to your wife".
    • − opinion#1202 6 likes at the source

      In the Bible Belt and in circles like the IFB and IBLP (the groups the Duggars were tied to), plus lots of others, you find similar views on gender roles, marriage, and other harmful practices around raising kids. I won't go into detail here; if you don't know the reference, consider yourself lucky, and if you do, we probably carry similar wounds. The umbrella of authority goes God first, then husband, then wife, then children, all layered under each other, and if you step out from under the umbrella of protection, an angry, wrathful God will strike you down and curse you for defying His perfect plan for creation. No surprise that scandals from "upstanding members of the community" keep hitting the headlines as hidden abuse comes to light. There are blasphemous uses of the Lord's name and His holy things out there. I've met other Protestants in that area with much saner takes, so I know it's not all of them, but like you said, it varies a lot by region because there's so much confusion about what scripture is supposed to mean and how it should be lived across all these traditions. (yes, I have rapture and penal substitutionary atonement trauma, why did you ask, lol?)
• − opinion#1173 21 likes at the source

  Wearing a head covering or not is a dress code question, not a matter of belief or doctrine. Dress varies hugely between cultures, so in some places all women cover, elsewhere they don't. In Greece specifically, head coverings mostly disappeared after the Greek revolution, because going without one signaled Greece's freedom from Ottoman/Muslim rule they'd been forced to live under. On submission in marriage, Western culture today has a lot of misconceptions about what 'submission' means, and those can easily lead to abuse that a wife tolerates because she believes she'd be defying the Church's teaching if she didn't 'submit' to it. The priest is probably stressing partnership over 'submission' precisely to push back against those unhealthy misconceptions, which aren't Orthodox. > I'm super confused why this priest seems to be telling his own beliefs rather than the church's beliefs? I'd suggest remembering that the priest represents the Church, while random social media content doesn't. You don't know more about the Church's beliefs and practices than the clergy who represent it.
• − opinion#1174 15 likes at the source

  Greek American here: generally head coverings aren't the majority practice in Greek parishes, at least in the GOARCH. Greek monasteries obviously have strict dress codes but that's separate from everyday parish life. Every so often you'll spot a yiayia in a covering, but it's not common. You're right to notice a difference between the Greek and Russian churches on this! We are united in doctrine and belief, but head coverings aren't a doctrine. They're local pious traditions that differ across cultures.

  • − opinion#1190 7 likes at the source

    My guess, purely from how many Greek and Antiochian parishes there are, is that most Orthodox women in America don't wear a head covering. My two cents: it's situational. In my parish wearing one would draw a lot of attention to you (kind of the opposite of modesty), but at the ROCOR parish down the road not wearing one would do the same. Thank God for economia haha

    • − opinion#1203 4 likes at the source

      Haha that's a pretty accurate description of the ROCOR! They love their veils! I was honestly pretty shocked at my first visit to a ROCOR parish
• − opinion#1175 13 likes at the source

  There's a range of opinions on secondary issues like these. (Including some people who insist there's **no** room for opinions and only they are right.) Ephesians 5:21 tells spouses to "Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ" and then explains how husbands and wives should submit to each other. But twelve verses can't cover every family, so each Christian couple works out their own relationship and they don't all look the same. Visit a men's or women's monastery and they'll ask you to wear a scarf or hat, since they deliberately keep a tradition that doesn't shift with culture. Travel in eastern Europe, Africa, and the Middle East and you'll see variation in when, whether, and why Orthodox women cover, and differences between generations. So here, in a fairly new mission field in North America, all the different Old Country practices (plus some old-fashioned American ones) show up from parish to parish. I usually tell women visiting a new parish to bring a scarf; if you feel out of place you can wear it or not. Bottom line: there's no Behavior Police, and nobody is taking notes.
• − opinion#1176 13 likes at the source

  From an Orthodox perspective, it matters to separate what's essential to the Christian faith and our salvation from traditions or customs that express Orthodox piety but aren't themselves essential to salvation. By essential I mean things like faith in Christ, repentance and turning from sin, participating in the life and Sacraments of the Church, and trying to live by Christ's commandments, the things that concern our relationship with God and the transformation of our life in Him. Other practices, like whether a woman covers her head in church, can be meaningful and valuable traditions, but they don't themselves determine anyone's salvation. The Orthodox Churches are united in doctrine while external customs differ: head coverings, for instance, are far more common in the Russian tradition than the modern Greek one. Likewise, Orthodoxy teaches mutual love, responsibility, and self-sacrifice between spouses, but that doesn't mean a wife must unconditionally submit to her husband in everything. So a priest can offer a pastoral interpretation of these matters without contradicting the teaching of the Orthodox Church.
• − opinion#1183 11 likes at the source

  This is laughable!! The Russian conservativism is all Victorian innovation, entirely Western!! The Greeks were far less influenced by their English in-laws and the move to not veiling was a direct response to the Ottomans. It was a cultural signal to Muslims that Christian women were not bound by Islamic practice.
• − opinion#1177 10 likes at the source

  OCA doesn't generally make pronouncements about any of this nonsense. Some women, mostly foreign born, wear head coverings but it's rare. No priest I've ever met has said anything about the role of women. You see this stuff online but is it real life? No.

  • − opinion#1191 1 likes at the source

    The role of men and women in marriage is laid out pretty explicitly in the marriage service. Priests have to make pronouncements on these things as pastors.
• − opinion#1178 10 likes at the source

  If you're here for the submission of women you're going to have a bad time

  • − opinion#1192 5 likes at the source

    As a woman feeling surprisingly drawn to Orthodoxy, this is a very comforting comment

    • − opinion#1204 1 likes at the source

      Being born and raised Orthodox, I can tell you there isn't a single Greek, Russian, Serbian, or Ukrainian woman with the phrase "submissive wife" in her vocabulary. The idea that Orthodox women submit to their husbands is entirely an online thing from people who weren't born and raised in Orthodox cultures.
• − opinion#1179 9 likes at the source

  The Church is also its people. Different people in different countries from different cultures with different histories living in different circumstances in different centuries sometimes do different things.
• − opinion#1180 9 likes at the source

  Head coverings are good but optional. Women who want to wear them may do so. Those who don't want to don't have to. Neither side should criticize the other. As for marriage, the husband and wife's relationship is their own business. We should be careful about interpreting every Biblical quote literally. We are not Muslims or Protestant fundamentalists. We interpret everything in the context of the Gospel and the Church.
• − opinion#1181 8 likes at the source

  > I was confused why his opinions seemed to be the opposite of what I've read from about the Orthodox church. What are you reading, where, and why do you trust it over your priest?

  • − opinion#1193

    I got this impression from stuff I've seen online and photos of women in the church. I just became a Catechumen under him and I'm trying to make sure I'm not joining a church that somehow goes along with progressive views. I don't know much about any of this and I'm not sure if some priests drift from the traditional views of the church.

    • − opinion#1205 12 likes at the source

      If you try to understand the church through the internet you're bound to pick up some wrong ideas. Just go for a few months and try visiting different parishes.
    • − opinion#1206 9 likes at the source

      Progressive views aren't automatically bad. You can be Orthodox and progressive.

      • − opinion#1209 1 likes at the source

        Depends entirely on what you mean by "progressive."
    • − opinion#1207 4 likes at the source

      "Conforming with progressive views"? Is that about politics or about the modern material world? Truth is the church is neither progressive nor conservative. The church is the church. It's focused on God, not the material world. Best to worry about your relationship with God and your priest, not whatever advice the church may or may not give to others around you. Me, I have no problem being Greek Orthodox and very "politically" progressive. Mostly because I believe in helping those in need and caring for all of creation, but that's just me. Your priest will give good pastoral care and from what I've seen over many years as a Greek Orthodox person, he seems on target.
• − opinion#1182

  You're *confused?* Seriously?? It's pretty simple. 1. Some people believe one thing 2. Some people believe another

  • − opinion#1194 5 likes at the source

    To be fair, I think a lot of this comes from how much information people have at their fingertips. Like, a priest with a big social media following posted clips about the "Orthodox" teaching that dinosaurs don't exist. I think it was a bit tongue in cheek, but that doesn't always come across online. As a result, I've heard catechumens in my parish say dinosaurs are a lie invented by scientists to make us doubt religion. That view would've been beyond parody ten years ago, but some people genuinely seem to think it's "the Orthodox view." Funny example, but I'm sure the same goes for headscarves and marriage advice. Basically, I get why people get confused when some of the endless opinions online don't match the character of the parish they actually attend.
• − opinion#1184

  Worth noting though that veiling isn't "essential," even though it's a good and pious practice commanded by Paul and lots of patristic sources. Listen to your priest and bishop and do what they say, especially as a catechumen.