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American Orthodoxy is not a culture anyone owns

I was recently banned from the ex-Orthodox subreddit after replying to a cradle Orthodox Christian who said converts are stealing her culture.

I want to say this plainly, and I mean no offense to cradle Orthodox here, but the conversation needs to happen. American Orthodoxy is not new. The Church has been rooted in America for well over a century, with its own rich and often overlooked history shaped by generations of immigrants, their descendants, converts, parishes, monasteries, and communities. The current growth in converts does not erase that history.

I am tired of seeing cradle Orthodox take issue with converts who embrace the faith seriously and develop an interest in the cultures historically tied to Orthodoxy. Enjoying Greek food, taking an interest in Slavic traditions, or embracing Eastern European culture is suddenly treated as larping or heritage theft.

I am an ex-Muslim. My cultural background was shaped by Islam, but that does not mean I must preserve every aspect of my former life simply because I was raised in it. Nor should another convert be expected to approach Orthodoxy exactly as I do.

Let's be honest about the cultural argument. My people would say we invented baklava. Many cradle Orthodox from the Middle East would say the same. Does anyone actually own baklava? What about shawarma, plov, or the countless other foods and traditions that have crossed borders, been shared between neighboring peoples, and developed into regional variations over generations?

I have a Russian friend who owns a plov restaurant and is married to an Uzbek woman. I would not accuse him of larping as an Uzbek because he has embraced Uzbek food and culture. Cultures interact, influence one another, and become intertwined.

So why can Europeans, Eastern Europeans, and Middle Eastern communities share and adopt aspects of one another's cultures without constantly questioning authenticity, but when an American convert enjoys baklava, learns Slavic traditions, or takes an interest in Eastern European culture, the accusation of cultural appropriation appears?

The irony is that someone can grow up in America, live an entirely American lifestyle, eat American food, and have little personal experience with the countries they claim to protect, yet the moment someone else expresses genuine interest in those cultures, they are offended.

The argument becomes harder to take seriously when ordinary cultural exchange is framed as oppression or theft. There is a significant difference between genuinely disrespecting someone's heritage and simply appreciating, participating in, or adopting aspects of a culture you were not born into.

I say this as someone who has lived through a major religious and cultural transition. Becoming Orthodox does not mean I must completely abandon my previous cultural background, and I do not expect every other convert to do so either. Some converts will retain almost everything about their former lifestyle. Others will naturally develop new interests, habits, traditions, and cultural connections through their life in the Church.

That is perfectly fine.

Orthodoxy is not an ethnic inheritance that only certain people are entitled to participate in. It is the faith of the Church, and people from all backgrounds are called to embrace it. We should encourage people to take their faith seriously rather than scrutinize how they choose to live it.

You do not have to eat Greek food, drink Turkish coffee, learn Russian, celebrate Serbian traditions, or adopt any particular cultural practice to be Orthodox. But if someone genuinely enjoys those things, why should that bother you?

Main points

  • American Orthodoxy has over a century of history shaped by immigrants, descendants, converts, parishes, and monasteries
  • Cradle Orthodox accuse converts of cultural theft for enjoying foods and traditions historically tied to Orthodoxy
  • Cultures naturally share and adopt from one another across European, Eastern European, and Middle Eastern communities without authenticity disputes
  • Orthodoxy is the faith of the Church for all people, not an ethnic inheritance restricted to certain groups
  • Spiritual growth and serious practice of the faith matter more than cultural authenticity standards
57 opinions in the discussion 35 participants, 41 replies to each other The opinion with the most support I used to post regularly on that ex-Orthodox sub (from a different account). Whatever the topic, they'll twist it into another reason to trash the faith, including my own old posts there, which I deleted after coming back to the faith (thank God). Once I saw… Read the discussion
128 comments at the source Original on Reddit

Discussion · 57

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  • opinion#2705

    I used to post regularly on that ex-Orthodox sub (from a different account). Whatever the topic, they'll twist it into another reason to trash the faith, including my own old posts there, which I deleted after coming back to the faith (thank God). Once I saw someone complaining that Orthodox laypeople and priests say "it's above my paygrade" when asked something they don't know. What, would it be better if they invented an answer on the spot? Then the same people would complain the answer was made up, false, or harmful. It's absurd. There's no way to "win" with them.

    • opinion#2721

      The ex-catholic sub is just as toxic, with the same low-quality arguments, if you can even call them arguments.

      • opinion#2735

        Yeah, at least the ex-Orthodox sub is more open and friendly toward non-Orthodox Christians and theists generally. Honestly a lot of people there seem pro-Catholic, which is odd. Even during my ex-Orthodox phase, a quick look at the ex-catholic sub left a bad taste in my mouth: self-declared Satanists as mods, basically every kind of Christian mocked and trashed, and tons of posts about unrelated American politics. Maybe it's changed, but I'm not going back to check.

        • opinion#2747

          I stopped visiting that ex-Orthodox sub. It was handy for venting some frustrations, but they basically want the church to be gay, and that seems to be a big part of what the place is about. It's beyond obnoxious.

          • opinion#2758

            >they want the church to be gay Well it's current year, of course they would /s >It's beyond obnoxious. 100%, and I mean this without exaggeration: how obnoxious some of those posters are actually contributed to my return to Orthodoxy. It made me ask whether I'd want to hang out with these people in real life, and the answer was a loud no. Funny, since many of them say the behavior of Orthodox Christians online or around them pushed them out of the faith. That's not what made me leave at first, but it showed me we can be pretty emotional and irrational creatures.

        • opinion#2748

          Also, a lot of the people there have genuinely been traumatized by the Church.

        • opinion#2749

          One thing that kept me from falling away was talking about the priesthood with a priest. He told me it's a lot of work, but also a lot of spiritual growth, scripture reading, prayer, fasting. It always reminds me of Paul telling Timothy that new converts shouldn't be ordained because they might become conceited. He did say that if I want to pursue it, a good start is reading a chapter of the New Testament and one of the Old Testament daily. We always need to carve out time for the Lord. Orthodoxy isn't a religion you rush into; it takes development, and I'm on a long journey like everyone else.

    • opinion#2722

      Are the people there mostly atheist ex-Orthodox, or did they become Protestant? These specific subreddits always confuse me, since you can have both atheists and someone who left over the disputes about the Second Council of Nicaea. I don't think they have much to talk about with each other lol

      • opinion#2736

        Overwhelmingly Christian. Many have moved on to Protestantism or Catholicism. Atheists are the minority.

      • opinion#2737

        Since many contributors are American, they're mostly ex-converts who either became atheists/agnostics or, less often, some other kind of Christian, mainly Protestant or Catholic. I ended up in the first camp, and I got really annoyed at Catholic contributors who were never Orthodox but kept showing up just to dunk on Orthodoxy and proselytize for Catholicism, saying it's "so much better" than "legalistic" Orthodoxy. Funny how hard they try to distinguish Catholicism from Orthodoxy when to most people, especially atheists, they look pretty similar in practice. And Catholicism is way more legalistic. > I don't think they have a lot in common to talk about lol Depends on the post. An atheist-perspective post gets the atheists commenting and upvoting; a post praising Catholicism over Orthodoxy gets the ex-Orthodox Catholics. The two groups mostly stay in their own threads. Obviously it's not only Catholics and atheists and there's overlap sometimes, but that's the general picture.

    • opinion#2723

      I once saw someone claim our church music was developed along Pythagorean music theory in order to brainwash the congregation. Apparently you can't even have good hymnography without being accused of running an MKULTRA program. Also, isn't Pythagorean music theory the foundation of European music generally?

      • opinion#2738

        It's nitpicking at its finest. >brainwash That reminds me of the constant appeals to the BITE model, which supposedly proves Orthodoxy is 110% a cult! Never mind that the criteria are so vague and broad that schools and the military would count as cults too. What gets me is how infallibly they treat it, as if it weren't just something one psychologist invented in a book in 1988.

  • opinion#2706

    I can only speak for myself, but it's not that I mind people being curious about my family's ethnic heritage. What irritates me is things like the unintentional but eager adoption of western church norms (celebrity priests, online macho posturing, homeschool separatist ideology) and loud misrepresentation of what we actually believe. And it's not just the infamous cases. Most of the female Instagram accounts I've seen centered on Orthodoxy don't just misrepresent how diverse Orthodox women are, they make claims in the name of Orthodoxy that are flat-out wrong. They're excited and don't mean any harm, but it's still deeply offensive, feels gratuitous and performative, and they usually react badly to pushback. Edit to add: also men who convert and immediately feel entitled ("called") to ordination or leadership. I won't sugarcoat it, it's gross. You're not a leader of a group you just joined and whose beliefs and practices are still new to you.

    • opinion#2724

      I'm an American convert, and I thank God daily that my priest isn't someone the internet has opinions about. This importing of American celebrity culture is such a strange thing we're doing.

      • opinion#2739

        I honestly don't think they realize they're doing it. They watch one YouTube video, then the whole channel, and suddenly they're getting defensive at coffee hour because someone disagreed with Fr. Famous.

        • opinion#2750

          I follow a few well-known priests online, and I have a mental sorting system for them. If my priest has praised one of them, I'll usually take what they say seriously. If he's never mentioned them, they land in the "interesting, either this matches what he's said or I should ask him about it" category. If he's said he doesn't like them, they get lumped in with Protestant and Catholic personalities, worth hearing out for perspective but not something I'd build my life around. At the end of the day, my priest is the one I trust with my spiritual growth.

    • opinion#2725

      That's exactly how I feel! Sadly a lot of people online misrepresent Orthodoxy and Christianity in general. And on the social media note... I'm an immigrant from Eastern Europe, and about ten years ago people mocked me for being Ukrainian. Called me Russian, a spy, a terrorist, said the food looked disgusting. Now those same people are posting aesthetic travel reels about the place and being performative. So I feel kind of strange about it too.

      • opinion#2740

        Yeah, that's nonsense. Those aren't the same people, and you're pretending they are just to play the victim. You're lumping all Americans into one jar with the same label while you live in America typing in English. Anyone could accuse you of being performative pretending to be an American.

        • opinion#2751

          I'm sorry the cradles you've met made you so defensive. I wasn't talking about you, playing victim, or generalizing all Americans. I meant specific people who stereotyped me before and now jump on internet trend bandwagons, even traveling to Ukraine during a war for content while people are dying there. I don't know where the cradles at your parish are from and can't speak for other nationalities, but most Ukrainians would happily share language tips, food, traditions and history if you're kind, respectful and make an effort. If you assume the worst and get defensive, that might be why you clash with people at your parish. Like other comments said, many immigrants only found community in Orthodox parishes, and coming from very homogeneous cultures it makes sense some older folks are closed off. Maybe fear of change, of things getting too western, language shifting, etc. In my experience cradles try to keep the culture alive and share it with converts, not accuse anyone of appropriation. It's odd to obsess over what food someone eats or language they learn. Maybe try another parish if one is nearby? And like you said, let's focus on faith and humility. Ignore those remarks and pray for the people who hurt you. God bless.

  • opinion#2707

    I'm Russian Orthodox attending an Antiochian parish and I enjoy the cultural exchange. We have lots of converts, and if anything they bring an organized protestant flavor, very punctual, organized, big on email bulletins. Not a bad thing at all. I do see orthobros and female influencers online putting down other denominations, which isn't appropriate, especially if you recently left one yourself, or people pushing political agendas and trad culture into Orthodoxy. That's mostly online though, and the internet is a dreadful rage-baiting echo chamber, so I don't read much into it. I've met a few weirdos in person but they're probably internet-influenced. I think it's wonderful that converts revive the space and keep the church alive. Some bite off more than they can chew or dive in head first when patience is better. Orthodoxy is complex and multifaceted, there's no manual, you won't get it overnight or fully understand it by the end of converting. Most converts I meet are open minded about culture and food, which I love. Some worry too much about doing everything perfectly when the faith is a lifelong journey. My issue isn't cultural sharing, it's cultural loss or erasure, or culture being overshadowed by influencer stuff or protestant vibes. The only way to stop that is being active in your parish, representing your culture well, and welcoming converts so they don't fall into…

  • opinion#2708

    Cradle here, OCA specifically, which is technically a blend, and I've dabbled in western rite too. I can only speak for my own experience. As a cradle I rarely hear cultural appropriation complaints. The real frustration is the ortho bro movement. That's what me and the cradles I talk to can't stand, they seem to fundamentally misunderstand what Orthodox is, especially the ones pushing Christian nationalism. Like you said, Orthodoxy is a multicultural blend. We like them all. It's ultimately about building a community around shared values and beliefs.

    • opinion#2726

      Completely agree. With how social media works, a lot of people's only exposure to Orthodoxy is orthobros making tiktoks and misrepresenting our religion and cultures.

  • opinion#2709

    I think the problem is American "converts" trying to use Orthodoxy for their right wing politics. Slavs and people from the east inherently distrust Americans given America's bad reputation in that part of the world from decades of foreign policy. If Americans honor the faith over time they'll earn respect. Let's compare notes in a thousand years. TTYL

  • opinion#2710

    I don't think anyone minds a convert enjoying our food or trying to fit in. The problem is when someone tries to out-greek / out-russian / out-arab us. Their cooking is more authentic than ours (according to gourmet magazine), their clothing looks like a costume rather than what everyone else in the parish wears, it's embarrassing. They take a language class and then correct our kitchen Greek/Russian/Arabic grammar and accent. That last one reminds me of colleagues from the midwest visiting Boston and trying to "help" us speak better by making us over-enunciate the letter R like they do, blissfully unaware we sound more like the British (who invented the language) than they do. You can be yourself and follow the faith. No matter how much you read or try to imitate because you like it, it's new to you and you should be learning. I don't think you realize what you're doing. It can feel like mockery because often it is over the top.

  • opinion#2711

    As a cradle I'm not too familiar with the things you're describing, but beyond that I'd take everything on that forum with a huge grain of salt. What you're describing seems to fit the broader political trends of recent decades. Most converts in the US are "white" Americans, or white people outside the US generally, basically the only group that cultural appropriation as a standard gets applied to, even though their culture is the most "appropriated" globally. So the knee jerk reactions toward converts becoming Orthodox, and the political correctness framing, make sense in that light imo.

  • opinion#2712

    So many "ex-Orthodox" commenting. Something I've been wary of. How many converts stay the course and how many move on? And how deep is their formation? I believe St Porphyrios said it takes 20 years to become Orthodox. As a cradle Orthodox who is very Greek, I welcome converts. Many are my chant students. In English of course. They're good folks, well meaning. Most stick with other converts though, so I don't know how much proper modeling of the faith they get in their formation. Being ridiculed as an ethnic cradle Orthodox, especially Greek, is common, but it honestly doesn't bother me. Judge not, lest ye be judged. Not sure what baklava or souvlakia have to do with our faith, I don't see that they do, but there are lesser known aspects of cultures that have been Orthodox for centuries and millennia that converts would do well to emulate. Anyway, we're all poor, weak, sinful creatures (hopefully) trying our best. As Fr Georges Florovsky is supposed to have said, "Orthodoxy is the right faith. Just the wrong people!" May his memory be eternal.

  • opinion#2713

    I agree with a lot of what you're saying, but for Orthodoxy to really grow in America we need to move away from tying Greek or Russian Orthodoxy so closely to ethnicity. I'd like to see American Orthodoxy develop its own identity, with English as the main language in our churches. I'm ethnically Greek myself, and though I mostly live in America, visiting Australia reminds me how much some parishes revolve around Greek culture. Greek flags in churches, Greek classes, Greek festivals, services entirely in Greek. Then at coffee hour everyone wants to know which part of Greece your family is from. I find it tiring. I understand why it developed that way. For older Greek immigrants the Church was where they preserved language and culture. But I suspect for quite a few, especially the elderly, attending church has become more a cultural practice than an expression of faith. Nothing against preserving Greek traditions, but ethnicity has become far too important in parish life. How can converts feel at home when so much of the community revolves around an ethnic group they don't belong to? Orthodoxy in America shouldn't have to be Greek or Russian in character. It should develop naturally as an American expression of the same faith.

    • opinion#2727

      I can't help wondering what an "American" Orthodoxy would even look like, since the US is intrinsically multicultural and multi-ethnic. That goes back to America's roots, and I'm not sure America is built in a way that can genuinely sustain an identity the way Greece and Russia have, which are largely monocultural or at least have a strong singular ethnic identity. Like, I'm obsessed with the idea of Appalachian Orthodoxy, but not all Americans would adopt that as the cultural identity their Orthodoxy is built around.

      • opinion#2741

        Honestly I don't think deciding what the "cultural" identity is makes sense. It's about figuring out what medicine Americans need and how to apply it. This focus on "cultural" identity becomes a big problem in itself. We're brothers and sisters in Christ before culture. I think that attachment to culture is what a lot of Americans actually feel off about. Many don't feel welcome because they're not part of the ethnic culture, but they also see western culture as destructive. Then we get badmouthed for being too zealous? My parish is OCA and fairly traditional, women veil, no pews, etc, but all in English. The issue I see is the Church is a hospital and people of different cultures have different needs. The Church has the flexibility to handle that, but when we cling to cultural heritage over the faith we deny the medicine to those who need it.

    • opinion#2728

      Crazy take. Culture and faith can coexist, and it matters that diasporic communities have a space to engage in and pass on their culture through language and so on. If someone is uncomfortable in those spaces, that says more about them than about the people who find belonging in their own culture.

      • opinion#2742

        Do you actually think one matters more than the other? Honestly I'm struggling to see why this is even a problem. And yes, I do think keeping culture alive matters. I just had no idea people felt this strongly about Christianity, that someone's culture should outrank or equal the faith itself. If one of Jesus's final commands was to go make disciples of all nations, why gate-keep it? As long as nobody's being rude, what exactly is the issue???

        • opinion#2752

          You're not getting it. Faith and culture are distinct things but they blend in practice. They can and do exist together. Even an "American" Orthodox church, or any other kind, would have its own culture; religion, faith and communion don't float free of context. I never saw anyone in these comments claim culture beats religion. Our point is that the two aren't as separable as some would like to pretend. So let me restate it: trying to erase or water down the cultural elements in diaspora parishes is wrong and shouldn't be the goal. Newcomers are welcome, but they shouldn't expect to feel at home by stripping those things away. If a guest is uncomfortable surrounded by unfamiliar languages and traditions at services or coffee hour, that's on them, not the parish.

  • opinion#2714

    Big debate, but here's a simple observation. If a convert at an "ethnic-majority" parish truly wants to fit in, the hardest path is also the best one: LEARN THE LANGUAGE. I was learning Russian when I converted, and I fit in because the older cradles respected the effort, plus the language helped me see things clearly. You learn not all Russians love Kulich, peasant costumes and Russian novels. If you're only in it for the outfits and food, it shows. I had a friend at my parish who got into things Russian and his first move was printing business cards (he sold appliances) with English on one side and Slavonic, not even Russian, on the other. He couldn't say more than Da and Nyet. It was weird and awkward; we didn't have the word larping back in 1995. That's not a balanced way to adopt a culture. You could say it hurts nobody, but it does create friction.

  • opinion#2715

    I'm a cradle Orthodox Christian and I am *furious* at that ex-orthodox person claiming converts are stealing her culture. If I could say something harsh to her, it would be: *It's not your culture anymore, EX-orthodox!* It's your ex-culture. You walked away from it, you don't even care. Now it belongs to people who value it more than you did. The converts are the future. Go practice *your culture* at places like Disneyland and McDonald's. Orthodox churches belong to those who follow Christ.

  • opinion#2716

    There are people in this sub wearing eastern orthodox flair who post here giving advice as 'orthodox' while also posting in exorthodox and atheist subs trash-talking the church. As far as I can tell they treat orthodoxy as a cultural identity, not a religion. Whatever. And for those afraid ethnonationalist converts will change the church, God will look after His church. Edit: I read some comments over there. Wow... Sounds like most of my jewish friends talking about Christians.

    • opinion#2729

      I read that sub because I genuinely want to understand why converts keep cycling through. It seems like a lot of them were in very unhealthy parishes with priests on power trips who probably never should have been ordained (often converts themselves, rarely seminary trained). One particular jurisdiction seems to be where most of the trouble is.

  • opinion#2717

    The cultural history cuts both ways. It ties the community to a shared past, but it can feel foreign and intimidating to outsiders. I think we should be more welcoming and less dug in with converts. The Antiochian churches I've attended lean generic American: services all in English, lots of converts or people far removed from immigrant culture. Maybe that's not every Antiochian church, but it's what I've seen. My first priest after leaving Protestantism was Antiochian, a former Catholic priest of Italian descent. The Antiochian church in Salt Lake is full of ex-Mormons. We should all aim to be as open as those churches are.

  • opinion#2718

    This whole division, where EVERYTHING outside your own culture is appropriation, just makes me sad. American food isn't one distinct cuisine; America has foods from all kinds of cultures, sometimes adapted to American tastes, sometimes not. But what even is an American palate? People claim they want diversity, then when others get genuinely excited about trying things from other cultures, suddenly it's wrong. It makes no sense. I'm from the American South and grew up on Southern comfort food. I'd be thrilled to see friends from other cultures try my favorite Southern dishes or join in the culture. I wouldn't feel patronized or offended; I'd be happy they enjoy what I grew up with. The behavior the OP describes is super toxic and just divides people. I wish the idea had never entered anyone's head. But we can push back by being open about our own cultures, and above all, being kind and praying.

  • opinion#2719

    Reading this with interest as a catechumen in the UK. My church (Antiochian) is very diverse: English, Welsh, Russians, Ukrainians, Bulgarians, Romanians, Greeks, Syrians, Ethiopians, Somalians and more. Probably as many converts as cradle Orthodox, and nobody has ever made me feel like I'm stealing or larping anyone's culture (where would I even start, with that many under one roof?). It makes me wonder if this is more of an American thing, or if it exists here and I just haven't hit it (yet). One factor worth considering: America lacks a pre-schism Christian heritage like the British Isles have. Christianity was established here centuries before the schism, while Orthodoxy reached the USA in the late 1700s via Russian missionaries, so maybe belief and cultural identity are more entangled there, with religious practice and cultural tradition blurring together, which could explain the defensiveness about 'appropriation'. Not excusing people who accuse converts of stealing or larping, just offering a possible explanation. That said, I'm sorry you went through this. Remember St Paul in Galatians: "there is neither Jew nor Greek [...] for you are all one in Christ Jesus" (3:28 NKJV). God bless x

  • opinion#2720

    Don't tell generations of Orthodox Christians how to feel. That's not your call. Many immigrants held onto the Church because it was all they had when they arrived. It's where they celebrated their traditions and spoke their language, and for many it still is. Growth shouldn't come at the cost of stripping away ethnicity. Come as your white Christian American selves, but don't expect proud Greeks or Ukrainians to drop their traditions and culture for you. And larping is real. Newcomers suddenly dress like peasants from a century ago, cover their heads when longtime parishioners don't, even stubbornly stand 100 percent of the time when the church has pews and everyone else sits for parts of the Sunday service. Probably racing for downvotes here, but my Vladyka was one of the most famous converts and I learned at his feet. I have no problem with converts who come in without disrupting a parish's norms.

    • opinion#2730

      The stubborn standing baffles me. My parish has pews and in the past year has started having the laity sit during specific parts of the Liturgy. Would I personally rather stand in prayer throughout? Yes. Do I? No. Why? Because I'm obedient to my priest. And because I'm there to worship our Lord with my community, not alone by my own personal standard of holiness and preferences. How can you have Orthodoxy without submission? Without something as basic as following your priest's lead in worship?

      • opinion#2743

        The church tradition is actually standing; chairs in churches are an American tradition. So I find it funny that anyone thinks a person is larping just because they want to practice the faith correctly.

        • opinion#2753

          Yes, originally Christians met in catacombs and hid their worship; they couldn't have permanent church buildings. That was true of all Christians, the Latin church included. But tradition is living and it changes. Churches in the US and Canada, but also Greece, Lebanon, Albania, Romania, even the Ecumenical Patriarch's cathedral, all have seating, and bishops teach that you sit at certain times. Where there's no seating, people sit on the floor. Does standing the whole time and sitting on the floor for the homily and epistle instead of using a pew make you a better Christian, or does your mind wander to how much your feet hurt? If you want to practice the faith correctly, follow what the bishop and his priest have instructed. Doing otherwise looks like trying to stand out in some attention-seeking way.

        • opinion#2754

          I never said anything about larping. What I did imply is that putting your own preferences, or your personal interpretation of Tradition or of how worship should be done, above your bishop's direction on how worship is conducted in his diocese, is extremely *not* Orthodox. "Practicing the faith correctly" starts with obedience and humility.

    • opinion#2731

      Dressing modestly has always been a church tradition. Just because you don't want to follow it doesn't mean a woman is larping for actually keeping the church traditions.

      • opinion#2744

        Traditions according to whom? It wasn't a tradition at the OCA cathedral I was raised in, and it's not one at the Greek church I go to now.

        • opinion#2755

          It is a tradition though. Every Orthodox church worldwide practiced it without exception until around the 1950s. I was recently at an OCA cathedral where every single woman had a head covering, basically all the same style. Even that struck me as a bit much. I asked a visiting priest about it and he said this "extreme piety" is spreading across the East Coast too. Him calling it "extreme" seemed silly to me, but that's how jarring it is for people raised in churches that didn't do this. I'll admit that as a man I feel a little uneasy seeing *every woman* covered, since it suggests some imposed rule, and I know some women are sensitive about it. Still, if my priest told the men that tradition also requires long sleeves, I'd happily go along with it; I just see value in basic rules, and long sleeves wouldn't hurt me. What's happening is people trying to recover an observance that is undeniably an Orthodox (and Catholic and Protestant) tradition. Converts have every right to do that. Where you're right is that nobody gave you a vote in this tide back toward headcoverings, and your annoyance is understandable.

          • opinion#2759

            Extreme performance. It felt cultish seeing all those trad wives in matching outfits, right? I grew up in the church. Nobody at my OCA parish wore a scarf, not even the Europeans. That was a cathedral. Not in the many NYC parishes I've visited either, nor the big GOARCH church I attend now. And by the way, tradition says men shouldn't cut their beards. How long is yours?

            • opinion#2761

              Mine is short, but not because I cut it. It's just pathetic. But yes, in keeping with the new "cult," I don't shave it. I do shave my cheeks since the beard won't grow there, and keeping a wispy stubble doesn't make me look Orthodox, it makes me look homeless. But I'm fine living with the aesthetic; I don't feel like I'm losing my individuality. I believe you that your cathedral had nothing like this. People change slowly, and your cathedral is probably still that way and will stay that way another 50 years. But in the parts of the country where churches are growing and multiplying, more traditional dress is clearly coming back in style. I didn't find it cultish in itself; I just felt bad for visiting women who don't know the custom. I wouldn't call it a "garb," more a uniform. I'm not defending these changes or trying to talk you into wearing anything you don't want to. I'm just pushing back on the claim that required headscarves are some fake innovation. No, this was the rule in all Christian churches until very recently. People used to just follow rules without taking them personally.

    • opinion#2732

      I agree with your broader point, but converts bringing back standing and veiling is entirely a good thing. It's not disobedience, since nobody can legitimately forbid it; it fully matches tradition and honestly should be preferred over sitting and not veiling. I say this as a Greek cradle (we're sadly famous for both).

    • opinion#2733

      All Americans did the same thing when they came to America, but that doesn't change the fact that you can't gatekeep an entire faith. Islam embraces everyone equally, while this cradle-Orthodox division will end up hurting the church in the long run.

      • opinion#2745

        Good for Islam?!? Look, this has been an issue for 50 years. It's not going anywhere. It's not malicious. It's a pushback against overzealous converts.

        • opinion#2756

          Of course it's good for Islam. When someone converts to Islam and gets "overzealous" etc., they actually take the faith seriously and practice it, and the community praises and encourages them. When an Orthodox Christian does it and isn't lazy like most cradles, they get called larpers or "overzealous."

          • opinion#2760

            True, converts to Islam are treated very well by Muslims, and I've never heard anyone accuse a white jilbabi of LARPing. That said, I think this nastiness is a bit America-centered. I'm a convert (from Islam) in Australia, and cradle people have always been really warm to me and the other converts I know. Maybe there just aren't enough of us here to become a targeted enemy. These threads are always sad to read.

    • opinion#2734

      "covering their heads when parishioners don't." If you're a woman, you're supposed to cover your head. I suspect the knee-jerk reaction is to call that mean or rigorist somehow, but it's simply what you're supposed to do.

      • opinion#2746

        Oh, here we go. Gonna tell us what to do? Let me guess. This is exactly why you people sometimes get strongly disliked, bro. I have NEVER attended an Orthodox parish, cathedral, or shrine where most or even many women cover their heads. The ones you do see are performative trad wives. There, I said it.

        • opinion#2757

          Most Levantine-majority parishes do cover their heads. I'm ex-Maronite, and at both my family church and cathedral the women always covered. My two current Antiochian parishes are Levantine-majority too, and we cover our heads there as well. Look up 1 Corinthians 11:5-6. Calling women who cover "performative trad wives" is the most chronically online, brainwashed take possible.