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Kissing Icons in Athens: Answering the Charge of Shirk from Exodus

What the video says

A man whispers inside a church in Athens, where people are praying, and answers the objection that kissing icons violates Exodus 20:3-5, which forbids making images and bowing to them. He says the first thing Christians do on entering the church is kiss the icons, and he responds to a Muslim caller who calls this an innovation and shirk.

He argues Muhammad found images of Mary and Jesus in the Kaaba and did not destroy them. He then cites Exodus 25, where God commands Moses to make images of the cherubim for the Ark of the Covenant, and says Exodus 20 prohibits idolatry, as the golden calf episode in Exodus 32 shows. He adds that in Numbers 21 God told Moses to make a bronze serpent so that the people who looked at it would be healed, which he says Jesus alluded to as a type of himself on the cross.

Key moments

  1. 0:00 The speaker is in a church in Athens and whispers because people are praying there; he quotes Exodus 20:3-5 forbidding images and worshiping them, and says the first thing one does entering the church is kiss the icons.
  2. 0:33 He answers a Muslim who calls the practice an innovation and shirk, saying Muhammad found a picture of Mary and Jesus in the Kaaba and did not destroy it.
  3. 1:06 He cites Exodus 25, where God commands Moses to make images of the cherubim and place them on the Ark of the Covenant.
  4. 1:46 He says Exodus 20 was a prohibition against idolatry, shown by God's displeasure with the golden calf in Exodus 32.

A man whispers inside a church in Athens, where people are praying, and takes up the objection that kissing icons violates Exodus 20:3-5, which forbids making images and bowing to them. He notes that the first thing Christians do on entering the church is kiss the icons. A Muslim caller had told him the practice is an innovation and shirk, and he answers the charge directly.

His first argument is that Muhammad found images of Mary and Jesus in the Kaaba and did not destroy them. He then turns to Scripture and cites Exodus 25, where God commands Moses to make images of cherubim and place them on the Ark of the Covenant. He reads Exodus 20 as a prohibition against idolatry rather than against images as such, and points to the golden calf episode in Exodus 32 as the example of what God condemned.

He adds a third biblical example: in Numbers 21 God told Moses to make a bronze serpent so that the people who looked at it would be healed. He says Jesus alluded to that serpent as a type of himself on the cross. The video moves quickly between the church setting, the caller's objection, and the biblical texts, keeping the focus on whether the command in Exodus 20 rules out the veneration Christians show to icons.

The examples from the Kaaba, the Ark, and the bronze serpent are the core of his case, and each one is meant to show a difference between honoring an image connected to God's work and worshiping an image as a god.

Main points

  • The speaker whispers in a church in Athens because people are praying there, and says the first thing one does entering the church is kiss the icons.
  • A Muslim caller calls the veneration of icons an innovation and shirk, appealing to Exodus 20:3-5.
  • The speaker answers that Muhammad found a picture of Mary and Jesus in the Kaaba and did not destroy it.
  • He cites Exodus 25, where God commands Moses to make images of cherubim for the Ark of the Covenant.
  • He reads Exodus 20 as a ban on idolatry, citing the golden calf in Exodus 32 and the bronze serpent in Numbers 21, which he says Jesus called a type of himself on the cross.
25 opinions in the discussion 16 participants, 16 replies to each other The opinion with the most support "I was an Orthodox Christian" **Proceeds to read Exodus and skip Orthodox History** Read the discussion
110 comments at the source Original on Instagram

Discussion · 25

Opinions are anonymous retellings of real comments from the original discussion. The same colour marks the same participant.

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  • opinion#1116

    "I was an Orthodox Christian" **Proceeds to read Exodus and skip Orthodox History**

    • opinion#1120

      *proceeds to interpret it however he wants to make it seem like christians worship the icons* *proceeds to go kiss a stone cube 🕋*

  • opinion#1113

    Bro, how were you ever Orthodox and yet you strawman us this badly??

    • opinion#1121

      He probably grew up in a completely secular home, barely went to church if at all, and doesn't know anything about it. Or he's been Muslim his whole life and is just lying about it, which is pretty common with them.

    • opinion#1122

      They lie about everything constantly, don't believe anything they say. That's how they became "Abrahamic" despite having nothing to do with Abraham or Ishmael. They never went there, but they kept lying about it until people just went along with it and they got away with it.

    • opinion#1123

      He isn't even greek, probably a turk

  • opinion#1112

    That was honestly a really good rebuttal

    • opinion#1124

      Cherrypicking a historical error from the sirat of ibn ishaq doesn't help the argument here, since we have at least 3 different sahaba stating the prophet didn't enter the kaaba until the images were wiped away (Jabir ibn Abdullah, Ibn Abbas, Usamah ibn Zayd), plus a weaker 4th narration (from Al Waqidi) saying Umar ibn al Khattab personally wiped them away at the prophet's command after seeing they hadn't been washed, and was told to go back in and wipe the rest. If buddy wants to use islamic examples he should go to the definitive authority on this stuff instead of treating ibn ishaq's sirah as some infallible account of the Prophet's life lol

  • opinion#1114

    No stones allowed ❗ Muslims pray to, kiss and bow down to their Sacred Stone at the Kaaba, which proves Islam has nothing to do with the God of the Bible or the Abrahamic faith. Leviticus 26 (Torah): "Do not make idols or set up an image or 👉 a Sacred Stone for yourselves, and do not place a carved Stone in your land to bow down before it. 👈 I am the Lord your God." And the Quran confirms the Torah (3:3, 5:48, 5:68, 5:71, 10:94) 😁

    • opinion#1125

      We don't bow down to the stone, the stone is built into the kaaba lol. So 1. I'd like to hear why Jacob oiling the stone pillar and taking it as a sacred object in Genesis 28:18 and 35:14 doesn't contradict Leviticus 26, so we can expose your double standard. And 2. Poorly reading the Quran doesn't mean islam affirms the Torah wholesale; it partly affirms the general message, and that idea is explicitly refuted in Quran 2:79, 3:78, 5:13 and 6:91.

    • opinion#1126

      The Black Stone of Emesa was worshipped by Pagans in Syria around the 1st - 2nd centuries - In the early 7th century Islam was created 1800km south of Emesa - There is no mention of any Black Stone in quran - Muslims conquer Syria in mid 7th century - 200 years later In the early 9th century the first mention of a Black Stone at Mecca is written in Hadiths - Islam speaks of only one Sacred Black Stone 🪨 - 🤔

    • opinion#1127

      By pointing out the black stone isn't in Quran you're basically just confirming the Islamic understanding that the black stone has no powers by itself, nor do we worship it. So i'm not sure what your point is here. Do you as a Christian affirm a distinction between an External Action and Internal Intention?

    • opinion#1128

      Also you didn't answer my objection about Jacob

    • opinion#1129

      How many sacred black stones are there in the middle east ❓

    • opinion#1130

      Jacob's Dream at Bethel 10 Jacob left Beersheba and set out for Harran. 11 When he reached a certain place, he stopped for the night because the sun had set. Taking one of the stones there, he put it under his head and lay down to sleep. 12 He had a dream in which he saw a stairway resting on the earth, with its top reaching to heaven, and the angels of God were ascending and descending on it. 13 There above it stood the Lord, and he said: "I am the Lord, the God of your father Abraham and the God of Isaac. I will give you and your descendants the land on which you are lying. 14 Your descendants will be like the dust of the earth, and you will spread out to the west and to the east, to the north and to the south. All peoples on earth will be blessed through you and your offspring. 15 I am with you and will watch over you wherever you go, and I will bring you back to this land. I will not leave you until I have done what I have promised you." 16 When Jacob awoke from his sleep, he thought, "Surely the Lord is in this place, and I was not aware of it." 17 He was afraid and said, "How awesome is this place! This is none other than the house of God; this is the gate of heaven." 18 Early the next morning Jacob took the stone he had placed under his head and set it up as a pillar and poured oil on top of it. 19 He called that place Bethel, though the city used to be called Luz.…

    • opinion#1131

      The context here doesn't help you, because he's treating the stone as if it has holy significance because he had a dream while his head was rested on it. You still didn't answer my question: Can you clarify in your own words how jacob's 2 instances of venerating the stone pillar do not contradict the command of Leviticus 26? And you didn't answer my question about whether or not you as a Christian affirm a distinction between External Action and Internal Intention. Do you?

    • opinion#1132

      Do Jews bow down and kiss Jacob's stone ❓

    • opinion#1133

      The question isn't about Jews, it's about how Jacob was oiling and venerating his own stone pillar. But yes jews do kiss/bow down to the wall of the 2nd temple during prayer. I think you're avoiding answering whether or not you affirm a distinction between External Action and Internal Intention because you know the answer is 'Yes' and that would force you to conceed your statement about the black stone. Btw we don't pray to the black stone, nor do we bow down to it, nor do we pray to the kaaba or bow down to it, we pray while facing it the same way Jews pray while facing the temple wall. What's going on inside your brain where you can't answer simple questions or even answer a yes/no question with a 'yes' or a 'no'?

  • opinion#1117

    Since Muslims like original languages, let's look at the original Greek of the Septuagint for Exodus 20:4, often translated simply as "Images". As we can see, "ou poiēseis seautō eidōlon" does not forbid Eikons (images), it forbids Eidols (idols). Icons and idols are not the same thing. The difference is intent. We use the Holy Icons to aid our ascent toward the one true God revealed through Jesus Christ, not to follow another.

  • opinion#1115

    Would love your response to this. There's a lot to consider. I encourage you to reflect deeply on what's being said here. P.S. we don't worship the images. Who taught you that we do? Where did you get that idea from?

    • opinion#1134

      He says he 'used' to be orthodox then says the orthodox worship graven images 🤦‍♂️ just say you never engaged with Christianity bro

    • opinion#1135

      Lmao fr or maybe he just larp being Christian

  • opinion#1118

    Ask him if he's ever eaten pork or worn mixed fabrics. So suddenly what the old testament says isn't important anymore, huh? It's always picking and choosing, mixed with double standards.

  • opinion#1111

    If he kept reading to the next verse, he'd find it says "you must not bow down to them, for I am a jealous God". That would show him God does not want His followers to replace Him with any image.

  • opinion#1119

    Always the same with Muslims. They ignore that there is a new covenant, ignore the rest of the Bible, and isolate the one verse they find as "evidence to destroy Christianity". They apply a logic they'd never dare apply to the Quran, doing the exact opposite of the mental gymnastics they use to defend it. Basically quote farming.